Speaker: Anne McGuire MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State DWP.

Minister of State Jim Murphy MP was advertised to speak at this meeting but due to unforeseen events Anne McGuire MP stepped in and spoke instead. Anne McGuire is the minister responsible for disabled peoples and will jointly with Jim Murphy be responsible for the Welfare Reform Bill.

The meeting was held the day after the response to the Green Paper consultation was published. See

The Welfare Reform Bill is anticipated to reach the Second Reading Stage before the summer recess. It will then be carried over to the Committee Stage in the Autumn.

Anne McGuire: The Government’s ambition is to reach 80% employment. We can do this with the trend we are supporting now; the number on disability benefit has come down dramatically from the 80s and 90s when many people who should have been on Job Seekers Allowance instead were showed on to disability benefit to hide unemployment numbers.

At that time nobody asked if people on disability benefit wanted to be part of the workforce. These days the Government offers various initiatives to get people from all categories of disabilities back into employment again. We have shifted the focus from what people cannot do to what they can do.

A group that we are considering under this Welfare Reform Bill are people living with fluctuating conditions like HIV. We recognise that positive people need more flexibility when entering the work and we are working to incorporate this in to legislation. I cannot tell you yet how we will do this, but there is a working group specifically looking at this and preparing recommendations for the Bill.

The Government are also looking to incorporate Housing Benefits into the Bill which will give people a better quality of life. Instead of paying Housing Benefits directly to the Landlord, the tenant will now be given the money and be given an increased chance to negotiate their living.

Questions and Answers:

Baroness Masham: Can you elaborate on fluctuating conditions? How will these be assessed?

Anne McGuire MP: We are working very carefully with Doctors and stakeholders to ensure that we get the balance right but as I said earlier we have not got a finished model for this yet. 

Allan Anderson (Positively Women): Volunteering is very valuable for people trying to get into work. I understand that the new reforms will cut down on costs that can be covered for volunteering. This is surely a disincentive rather than an incentive.

Anne McGuire: On a general point we recognise the value of volunteering and want to encourage it. We are trying to clamp down on excessive expenses. I will be happy to clarify this further if you get in touch with me after this meeting.

Baroness Masham: When people have an incapacity or disability and want to work, but disability prevents, is there a scheme to get help with re-training?

Anne McGuire: Yes, and that already exists in current legislation. There is a view that people are born disabled. In fact, most people who are disabled become so during their life-time and most often when they are older. Most people who become disabled want to go back into employment and need to be assisted to do so. The Government helps people recognise that a disability does not have to dominate your life and helps you get on with your employment.

Kris Evans (UKC): I disagree with you. I see people who, if it were not for our prevention, would have been sacked. Employers know very little about fluctuating illnesses and the time needed away from work when one a person has not disclosed their HIV-positive status is hard to justify to an employer. The fear of discrimination and prejudice is a problem in this case.

Anne McGuire: I don’t underestimate the prejudice that people living with HIV/AIDS face and that is why I am pleased that the Disability Discrimination Act changed last year to incorporate people from the point of HIV infection. We have come a long way from the deep rooted prejudice of the 80s to where we are today, but I know that it is very difficult to bring about a full cultural change on this. Still, the legislation is in place.

Paul Clift (UKC): When the Government is re-thinking its programmes to get people back into work there are two ways it can go:

1. They can genuinely re-train people to find jobs that they want and with a decent salary attached to it, or
2. It can do the job to win elections and get the numbers off people of incapacity benefits quickly.

Anne McGuire: So cynical! This is the first time that a Government has seriously looked at this issue. We will not rest on most people only feeling ok!

Neil Gerrard MP: The system is not perfect – we know that. But in my experience it works well.

Andrew Little UKC – Program Director Equal Employability Projects: The changes in the DDA were very welcome, but we still need to enforce more changes. What the DDA has so far provided us with is a good platform. It takes a very long time for people living with HIV/AIDS to get back to work. The benefits system does not recognise this. People need to “try” work for a while before they return fully. Therefore volunteering should not be limited. A gradual approach to getting back to work should include volunteering.

Anne McGuire: We are hoping that this will be incorporated in the new pathways approaches that we are looking at. I welcome further discussions with you on this to see how we can better this approach.

Georgina Caswell (African HIV Policy Network): Will Asylum Seekers benefit from volunteering and work schemes?

Neil Gerrard: No.

Georgina Caswell (African HIV Policy Network): The welfare system is very complicated. Are you planning to provide pamphlets to help explain people’s entitlements?

Anne McGuire: It is very difficult to simplify welfare legislation since it is so wide. Still the language in the White Paper is accessible.

The meeting was cut short because of a number of divisions.

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